Flash Player 8 for Linux update
Update (10/31/06): I still see tons of people reading this old entry. Please read this for up to date information. A beta is now available.
Emmy Huang, Product Manager of the Flash Player, explains what the plans concerning the Linux version of Flash Player 8 are. Instead of releasing a 8.0 version we will directly move to 8.5 on Linux. This will avoid even more delay after we ship Flash Player 8.5 for Windows and Mac. That will also make sure that the new virtual machine works using gcc from start. I see that as a big benefit as gcc is a more strict and standards compliant compiler than Visual Studio or CodeWarrior.
We have a few very good engineers working on the Linux version right now in parallel to the work we do for 8.5. 64bit versions will take a little longer, there are no definite plans just yet. Just recompiling will not work unlike what you might think. The main issue here is the x86 JIT in the virtual machine and the mark&sweep garbage collection which are not 64bit aware right now, work on 32bit pointers only. Adding and testing this is not a small task as anyone who ever worked on this type of low level infrastructure might be able to attest. I can really only ask for patience here, we are aware that we need to offer a solution as soon as possible.
Emmy Huang, Product Manager of the Flash Player, explains what the plans concerning the Linux version of Flash Player 8 are. Instead of releasing a 8.0 version we will directly move to 8.5 on Linux. This will avoid even more delay after we ship Flash Player 8.5 for Windows and Mac. That will also make sure that the new virtual machine works using gcc from start. I see that as a big benefit as gcc is a more strict and standards compliant compiler than Visual Studio or CodeWarrior.
We have a few very good engineers working on the Linux version right now in parallel to the work we do for 8.5. 64bit versions will take a little longer, there are no definite plans just yet. Just recompiling will not work unlike what you might think. The main issue here is the x86 JIT in the virtual machine and the mark&sweep garbage collection which are not 64bit aware right now, work on 32bit pointers only. Adding and testing this is not a small task as anyone who ever worked on this type of low level infrastructure might be able to attest. I can really only ask for patience here, we are aware that we need to offer a solution as soon as possible.
posted by Tinic Uro at 3:41 PM
154 Comments:
What is the state of the Flash 7 Linux Player? I have been asked about it at work, but last I heard it was pretty buggy and not very dependable. I heard that from people on the Flashcoders list who said they had experience with it.
1. Is this true?
2. I'm hoping FP8.5 or 9 will rock steady on Linux ;)
Thanks for the post.
thanks for the post tinic. always very insighteful! SB
Is there an approximately date for the next standalone linux player release? It would be handy for a project I'm working on. Thanks, chr
Thanks Tinic, that's very good news! I have a couple of big projects that i desparately want to port to AS3, but enterprise clients, devteam members and myself are on Linux, and thus stuck to FP7 (buggy as hell on Linux).
I second christians question about release date. Is the usual "6 months after Win/Mac release" still valid? Earlier? Later? Roughly?
hope to see it soon ;)
You said the 64bit version is in the works, is that just for Windows or is it for Linux also? I need a 64bit for linux
i hope PPC users aren't left in the dark anymore, and someone cross-compiles flash player to Linux/PPC
I really think it would make a good statement if Macromedia went ahead and released Flash player 8.5 for Linux at the same time as the Windows one. PLEASE.
To Macromedia, does any other open source OS besides GNU/Linux exist? Is this code really so convoluted that you can only build it under Linux? And even there, only for x86?
Wondering...
Yes, PLEASE support Linux/PPC. With so many very talented programmers, it really shouldn't be so hard. Linux is NOT one architecture, and Free Software is NOT one OS. I don't mean to threaten, but if Macromedia continues to ignore portions of the Free Software community, then we'll eventually come up with a better, more standards-compliant solution that works across all Free Software platforms. We already have the SVG, DOM and ECMAScript engines to do it, and animation software is coming along nicely now.
I'm guessing this Linux update is a result of microsoft's more aggressive steps toward dominating the scalable web graphics market in Vista. So, if you want to choose a side, then do it right, and really choose a side. You'll get our support, if you make a genuine effort. Otherwise, you'll get our disdain. I'm hoping for the best, not the worst :)
Merry Christmas :)
I am myself a Linux/PPC user, but I doubt anything like a flashplayer for this platform will ever be released.
First as is said in the blog post, porting a JIT engine is not that simple. If it is difficult to port it from x86 to x86_64, imagine what it is to port it to a completely different platform.
Furthermore, with the Apple decision to switch away from the PPC platform, the number of Linux/PPC desktop users will not be getting bigger, to say the least.
So I wouldn't hold my breath.
Hi Tinic,
I loved TiniMeter on the Amiga. Do you still use BeOS from time to time? Do you think there is a chance of there ever being another BeOS version of the Flash player?
Best regards,
-Stephan
Great to see this post about development of Flash Player for Linux. I've been waiting for ages to see 64-bit (AMD64) varsion of it. Can't wait until it gets released. Oh and if you need any beta testers for 64-bit version I'll be glad to help.
Regarding the 64-bits version... I think many users would actually prefer a slow, interpreted native version than a faster jitted emulated one because the native would enable one to use the native browser - unnecessary of course but makes you feel better.
Looking forward to FP8.5
+1 waiting Linux/PPC flash player
"Yes, PLEASE support Linux/PPC. With so many very talented programmers, it really shouldn't be so hard. Linux is NOT one architecture, and Free Software is NOT one OS. I don't mean to threaten, but if Macromedia continues to ignore portions of the Free Software community, then we'll eventually come up with a better, more standards-compliant solution that works across all Free Software platforms. We already have the SVG, DOM and ECMAScript engines to do it, and animation software is coming along nicely now."
there's libswfdec - a free software flash implementation. Right now isn't complete, but if eventually it covers most of the functionality not many people will end up using the official unfree version....
great!! can't wait...
merry christmas.
Date of release? Rough timeline? Please?
I'm waiting for the 64Bits release... :)
What about shockwave player for Linux? I know shockwave has pretty much been replaced by flash, but some people still use it. I still come across some games online I can't play because they are shockwave/director and not flash and Linux doesn't have the plugin.
Oh, I forgot. Can we please have some proper sound support? You know, also since OSS has been deprecated for years now.
With the current state of things, all I can suggest is to drop the support for flash on all platforms. Discontinue all flash products and announce that flash is totally useless, meaningless and in general butt-ugly, and tell everyone to start using things that can be used on all platforms!!!
I'm an AMD64(all native) user and Linux/PPC user. No flash for 64-bit linux, no flash for ppc linux, no flash for 64-bit windows even. Marcromedia Flash Sux, people shift to a really portable solution please, so we can finally take back the web!!!
All you demanding and whiney folk need to read this little post before you ask for much more, it's not that it's "convoluted" it's just very highly optimized:
http://www.kaourantin.net/2005/08/porting-flash-player-to-alternative.html
Nice for Linux x86 but what about others like Linux/PPC or FreeBSD/x86 and many many others ..
Please make it available to every Open Source OS...
What about FreeBSD version? Thx :)
An AMD64 Linux port would be great! Flash is the exception that proves the rule when it comes to open web standards. It would be good to see flash remain relevant and current on the linux side.
Everytime I have navigated to a flash based webpage in the last year, I have just turned away because of the lack of flash and shockwave players for 64bit Linux!
Anyways, 64 bit version would be nice, and maybe a ppc linux version too!
Thanx a lot! for updating flash player for linux users. but When Macromedia will release its products for Linux
Linux PPC version....
www.petitiononline.com/fla4lppc/
I second what stippi's post about a Macromedia Flash Player for BeOS/ZETA, which seemingly has become a lot easier now with gcc used to build it.
Regards,
-- tic
well, I'm hoping to see less flash sites, what I try to achieve as I am a web developer. And I also use 64bit linux so I don't use flash plugin any more. I can say Macromedia made me switch :)
I also would like to say a port to PowerPC Linux would make a lot of us happy.
Another vote for Linux/PPC
... I'm not holding my breath though. In any case, good to hear you're using gcc now, this probably wasn't an easy switch, but imho it buys you a lot.
I'd also be curious to hear about some technology/library choices you've made, since your last post on porting Flash to alternative platforms.
Please don't focus on 'Linux.'
Please do focus on POSIX-compliant OSes, so as to include FreeBSD, NetBSD, etc. as well as Linux.
- some dude
.. besides, when does real 3d come to flash?
Interesting that instead of having Flash 8 we'll get 8.5 but only after 8.5 has been provided to Windows and Mac.
You've captured hearts with Flash video - but to keep hearts you'll probably want to use kinder gloves while telling us to wait.
Curious how 'alternate' platform friendly companies are when they need to be. Other wise we should just shut the f* up and wait for the bread crumbs.
Nice. Glad to see you're truthful about where we stand in line.
for all you asking about other platforms besides x86 and possibly 64bit linux, you're absolutely out of your MIND. You have no idea how much work that would be.
What's about another OS?
In fact a closed source player sucks like hell. Release the Source and naerly any OS could support FLASH.
There are Windows-Users, Mac-Users, Linux-Users, [Dragonfly,Open,Net,Free]BSD-Users, Plan9-Users, QNX-Users, Solaris-Users.....
How much closed-source players could you handle?
PHP wasn't that succesfull because it was closed-source. And at least JAVA points out whats the real Border is for any language. Why the hell should I care for Java if there's no VM on my OS or the OS I've to program for? It's the same for FLASH indeed..
Kind regards,
Rembrandt
Curious, what are you doing for sound? Will you be using alsa now instead of OSS?
How about ZETA?
We can use the old player from macromdia from the time they made it for BeOS but it's outdated.
A new and uptodate version would be nice. ;)
Ppc and amd64 user here.
If all the comments here make it look like Linux is a mass of different system - it is - and one source release can cover it all. Please.
It took Juho Snellman about couple of months of voluntere effort at his free time to port SBCL x86 to x86_64. I am sure it is a hard work to port Flash to x86_64 but for a person working full time on this it should not take more than a month. I've been waiting for year for Flash to work on my AMD64. There are other examples in open source comunity like Hans Boehm GC which did not take years to port either.
but for a person working full time on this it should not take more than a month. I've been waiting for year for Flash to work on my AMD64.
perhaps, if you can hire the right people. maybe all those skilled in porting 32bit virtualmachines are already employed at Sun, Microsoft, or Apple, or simply dont want to help out this proprietary product..Macromedia emailed me about it after finding my resume on Craigslist and i told them i wasnt interested, and im sure there are others...
I am myself a Linux/PPC user, but I doubt anything like a flashplayer for this platform will ever be released.
simply not true, ive been able to make gorgeous flash-esque apps, both inside browser and standalone, using TCL and Ruby bindings to Cairo, Xara , and the FF Canvas, and i'd take those over JAVAscript (or ActionScript) any day...plus they run anywhere i want them to..unlike flash which has greeted me with a lovely green puzzle piece for the past couple of years :)
.. as gcc is a more strict and standards compliant compiler than Visual Studio or CodeWarrior ..
quite OT, but the quote above seems to be a really vague rumour to me. the older vc7.1 and the brandnew one are the best, top notch and most standards compliant compilers ever. i mean they have herb sutter and co ...
are there plans to have a native freebsd version ?
Great to hear that things are moving forward :) Realy waiting on 64bit version :)
The only way for Linux users to boost Adobe to release Flash 8.x for Linux soon is to massively ask to all webmasters to stick with Flash 7.
If most sites stay with Flash 7, Adobe will release Flash 8.X for Linux ASAP...
I'm still wondering why so many people is using flash instead of SVG or whatever...
There is so many time we are waiting for a player...
Stop thinking we are some kind of toy you can use. I'm sic of being rejected of lame website because of flash.
If you are not able to make a player for every single OS/arch (GNU/Linux, GNU/Hurd, *BSD, Solaris, ... and PPC, x86, AMD64, alpha, etc...), then release your source code (or at least all the specifications), people will do it for you.
for all you asking about other platforms besides x86 and possibly 64bit linux, you're absolutely out of your MIND. You have no idea how much work that would be. So you think other people can go to hell ?
Please try to open you mind, your not alone. There is other people than you !
What about W3c, web should be accessible to anyone , blah blah blah ?
Release the source and see if the amount of work is still a problem.
maybe all those skilled in porting 32bit virtualmachines are already employed If skilled people are unavailable, then release this source code and let talented people doing it during their free time... for free
Cool, as soon as Flash 8.5 comes out for Linux, I'll buy the full IDE at that time...
"there's libswfdec - a free software flash implementation. Right now isn't complete, but if eventually it covers most of the functionality not many people will end up using the official unfree version...."
This is unusable on my Linux/PPC, it make Firefox stop responding or crash. Sound is also an issue. It lock the soundcard.
X.org is very well designed but sound under unix is at level 0, please consider having a way to use different output options: OSS, ALSA, artsd, esd... We can do remote display, but remote sound is painful because every program only support a specific output.
Despite the fact that the 64bit version is not that easy to create - what is the reason for the very very bad information policy? I spent huge portions of the ending year writing mails to Macromedia kindly asking for information and, well, begging for x86_64 flash - no response yet!
Put simply, you guys are too lazy to do an entire re-write of flash to allow for portability across multiple platforms.
It is nice to know the truth.
Linux zealotry really brings out the worst in people. These comments were atrocious.
any chance you could hack up a quick way to save rtmp streams? i'm a sucker for recording streaming media and screen capturing is such an ugly hack...
mail me patriotact (onthat) gmail.com .
I'm not sure I'm following. Isn't the PPC a 64-bit platform? Isn't Flash already on MacOSX? If so, doesn't that mean that it already compiles on not only a 64bit platform but on the PPC? Is the real bottleneck rewriting the bindings to X?
-- ean at brainfood dot com
Good to finally hear something -- thanks for the update!
That FP8.5 is coming up is very good news. Please count my vote for amd64 support, too, but I guess we'll get it for FP9 anyway.
Is there a chance we'll see a public alpha in time for the win/mac release?
mark
ean--
No, only the G5 is 64-bit, and even then most of Mac OS isn't. However, given Linux/x86 and Mac/PPC ports, a good design could easily support Linux/PPC and Mac/x86.
Hi! :) i just would like to know a possible date when linux flashplayer 8 will be released?? you see i currently have a school project that uses flash 8 and our instructor wants us to demonstrate it on linux.
will the flashplayer be released this month or the next or the month after that?
thank you and God Bless! :)
An aside:
There's a special Linux implementation that would greatly benefit from a Flash player. THe "One Laptop Per Child" project developed at MIT, they are giving away some 7 million systems to 3rd world countries this year with hopes of selling 100 Million in the year or 2 after. This $100 laptop desigh relies heavily on open source for cost reduction, maybe they will have to settle for one of the open source players.
http://laptop.media.mit.edu/
amd64 freebsd user here. i am sure there are alot more. maybe you could help us out with a ver. too
>> Linux zealotry really brings
>> out the worst in people. These
>> comments were atrocious.
If not for the Mac & Linux crowd Adobe/Macromedia would be left with Windows only for Flash. Doubt this is what they desire.
Any updates when the new player for Linux will be out.
Thank you
ED
Any word on a universal binary Mac player or IDE?
Not FreeBSD again? Is it too difficult afterall?
Can I assume that when the port of the Flash Player source to GCC is completed that this opens the door to the availabilty on more UNIX type systems of the Flash Player?
PS: Kaourantin.net is for me the only blog worth reading about Flash technolgy. Whished you posted more frequent.
Saying that the Linux build is an opportunity to exercise gcc may be true -- but it's not the only opportunity.
If you are building Flash 8.5 to run on Mac Intel boxes, you have to be using Xcode because CodeWarrior doesn't have an x86 compiler (Motorola sold the x86 compiler to a third party six months before the Mac Intel announcement). Xcode uses gcc. So you must be getting gcc coverage already, or else you aren't building Mac Intel. But you have to -- Rosetta can't be run against plugins, so Flash running within Intel native Safari has to be Intel native itself.
Maybe it's time for Macromedia to re-think their closed-source-dness of either their SWF format or their player. It seems rather ironic that Adobe, whose policy with PDF files was to permit open source file viewers but Adobe remained the licensor of the generators, now owns Macromedia, whose policy was to open source the format but with the stipulation that they were the sole source of the viewers.
Macromedia makes great products and many Linux users would be willing to pay for Linux versions of their SWF creation tools but the format should be open source (including ActionX).
Personally, I refuse to put my data into a file whose format that I might not be able to read later on because the sole source of the reader discontinues support my computing platform.
--Saul Goode
Ok, here is to a 8.5 linux release.
I am starting to get the version 8 only flash message from websites now :(
hi i'm a happy linux user (gentoo) and i like flash, for flash 8 content i use mozilla firefox the windows version, witch runs on a virtual windows created by wine, it works great that way but i hoop that next time adobe will release the win an linux version at the same time
I use Linux as my main OS and was glad to read this news (that 8.5 will be available for Linux in the future).
However, some of the comments on this blog post are ridiculous.
"Please make it available to every Open Source OS..."
Seriously? Do you have any idea how many open source OSs there are?
"How about ZETA?"
Wow. How many people are using ZETA? It's microscopic compared to the amount using the 'big three' (mac / win / lin).
"What about shockwave player for Linux?"
If this much work is required to get Flash running on 'just' win / lin and mac, do you have any idea how much work would be needed for Shockwave? I rarely ever see a Shockwave site when I browse. I can't even remember the last one I ran into. Plus, Crossover supports Shockwave so if you need it that badly, use that software.
Anyways, good to hear that a new version of the Flash player will make it to Linux. I thought macromedia had 'forgotten' about it after the 7.0 release.
Please, do something with flash 8 support, _everybody_ is making flash 8 sites, since the beginning of the year I've seen a lot of times the "update to flash 8" message, and the last week about 7, 8 times.
At least release a pre-pre-pre-pre-alpha version to play with, and, if possible, please do a _stable_ plugin, and please again: _fast_. Because the difference of the speed rendering between windows and linux plugins is... well. There's a thing called OpenGL out there.
thanks.
any news when 8.5 for linux will be available? there seems to be no video-news site left which does not use 8.o....
use flash player 8.5 in linux by wine:
http://blog.eshangrao.com/index.php/2006/02/28/209-flex2-flash-player-85-for-linux
what you can't see on these nice screenshots if you use flash 8 on wine is annoying flickering on your animation.
forget flash on wine!
we need native flash support on linux!
otherwise, stay with your old plain html and animated pics, or use java applet.
Already tired of reading comments to this post? ;-)
I'm just here for a short question: will asla be supported?
The other sound solutions are pretty uninteresting: oss bcame obsolete, artsd will die with KDE4, so that shouldn't be an option also, so there is only esd left - but for the most people true alsa support (alsa-dmix) should be enough - than ou can play different audio apps in parallel (which is not possible in every case with other solutions like oss emulation).
So, if you are sure in this one case (ALSA yes or no) I would be very thankful if you can point that out.
Regards,
liquidat
Who says you must use gcc? Maybe the real problem is that your compiler won't compile your MMX code for Linux. If thats the case, please blame the people behind your compiler for not supporting Linux.
When it comes to sound, Flashpayer is not the only program that plays sound under Linux. The only problem with Linux is that it offers too many options. You are doing the Linux community a favor by choosing the best sound standard.
My comment is only to say "present!". I'm another Linux 64-Bit user waiting for Flash for the architecture.
Just wanted to request that a Flash plugin for Linux/PPC be hopefully released.
is there at least an alpha version of flash player 8.5 for linux which one could test???? far too many websites are using 8.0 now, which leaves all linux users out.
Another 64 bit user waiting to experience Flash...
SUPPORT GNU GNASH
I do support gnu gnash, but until it is capable of dealing with flash 8.0 and higher it isn't much of a help either.
FreeBSD, Free BSD, FreeBSD!!!!!!!
Why can't you guys do a FreeBSD version?
freeBSD?
Any news on the Flash 8.5 for Linux?
any news on flash 8.5 release date for linux. How about a 64 bit version
adobe sucks
Well we've been living without flash8/Shockwave support on Linux for some time, so take your time.
Meanwhile I'll keep going away from pages pages using that stuff.
for those who haven't actually bothered to look @ the flash 8.5 beta 2, you'd be shocked to hear that there is NO Linux version. they either plan on not shiping a linux version OR release it AFTER they release flash 8.5
this is very disappointing, if they aren't skilled enough to port it to linux, then they should atleast talk to a ubuntu or suse developer and get them to sign a NDA. They could port it to linux, then macromedia could still take the credit.
Comcast is just now joining the ranks of those needing flash 8 support
i put a message to support the develeoppement of the 8.5 linux player. Will be great. hope there will be a beta, i wil test and report bugs. i'm testing as 3.0 on windows.
a swf compilator for linux would be great too !!!
Hi. I'm Linux AMD64 x86_64 user. It's sad, there still isn't such version of flash for Linux 64. :/
People at adobe (?). We are in year 2006 and there is not only one right OS: windo$e. Think about that.
When, when, when 64Bit version of flash for linux and others too ?
I could use the linux players under FreeBSD using FreeBSD's linux support...if the license didn't explicitly prohibit it!
Unfortunately Flash is a closed-source product that became a de-facto standard. This allows Adobe to cut-off non Windoze OS users from the fruition of the most recent Flash technology.
This is a grave problem that should advise people to move away from proprietary technology.
Adobe have some of the very best software in the multimedia market. But I shall not use it nor encourage others to use it, mainly because of their attitude towards non-MS users. Sites that use Flashplayer shall see me for long enough to post them a nice letter stating why I will not visit their site again and why I shall discourage others from doing the same.
I have voted with my feet(fingers). I hope all you others do too.
well, it seems linux users have to rely on the quick progress of the gnash-project, if they want to be able to enjoy flash 8 content (or higher).
I have just made a donation....
Linux/AMD_64 user here. This is what happens if we allow a proprietary software to become standard. Freedom was never cheap. Develop.Contribute.Donate.
We will overcome&prevail.
FONT support
Please make the flash player have proper, fontconfig, support.
this is getting ridiculous. Adobe should realize that there are now more Linux than Mac-users. With China increasingly deciding for Linux, there is even the possibility that it may become a serious competitor for Windows. I wonder if it is wise to anger such a rapidly growing potential customer base. OpenOffice and other open source projects have already demonstrated, that even supposed monopolists can be threatened
Adobe/Macromedia are one of the better companies for linux development. All those companies releasing hardware with no linux drivers / software. Shame about Flash 8, but I think they've made the right decision. I'd prefer to have Flash 9 sooner, than having Flash 8 and constantly losing ground between Windows and Linux releases. Adobe don't have an endless budget for Linux users.
Judging by all of the comments here, I think this shows to Adobe that Linux is growing in popularity. There IS A MARKET out there for software that runs on Linux. I'm happy to hear that you will be releasing a version of the player for Linux soon which will put it on par with the players for Mac & Win. Still would love you have a Flash MX Studio on Linux, but I guess I can only dream of using my Linux box to create flash movies. Is Adobe hiring?
Judging by the replies, Linux users are getting dumber and dumber!
From what I've read up, gcc has been more standard compliant for YEARS. I'm not sure how true/untrue this has been (I did hear VC7.1 or newer became fairly close a year or two ago).
I've been waiting for about half a year, for an 8 flash player.
Not too bad, expect for the fact all these websites are compiling the flash FOR flash 8 - why not backward compile it? Surely it would be the same - although perhaps different code.
Back onto the 8.5 Linux port. I'm a bit saddenned by the fact there's no Linux Beta, but not really angry about it. I'm more angry that I can only find info on this by searching google and going through 3 links to find this blog. Please, someone update the flashpage/FAQ with info on the Linux status.. Otherwise we're left in the dark. Even if you show us you're only 50% done, with another 6 months ahead etc, we know where we are.
--
Tr0n
If you can't even predict a release date flash clearly isn't the platform independent solution it claims to be.
HI!
welll i think that to make flash "open source" would make it better...
there are numerus licenses like;
LGPL, bsd, x windows licens, all open-sourc-ish
I'm other Linux AMD64 x86_64 user waiting..
I am hoping that Flash Player 8.5 for Linux is better than Flash Player 7! I have seen various bugs in flash player 7, such as text not showing up on some flash movies and a larger CPU usage than the Windows version.
Hopefully these problems and others will be addressed. It would be great to hear about the progress so far.
I sure hope the new version finally comes with more than one output plug in, and if it's only one I hope it's not locking OSS as it h as always been with Flash player for Linux.
I say having ALSA and an OSS as sound options would be reasonable, although if it was modular and supported plugins people could develop their own plugins for other sound architectures like Arts and esound.
In any case I hope the desync of video and audio is fixed too
Umh, it's been over nine months since the launch of Flash 8. Web pages that require F8 are very common and still we don't see even a beta version of FP8(.5) for GNU/Linux. Very disappointing, Adobe. Shame on you!
Patience? Ask all Flash developers out there to NOT USE Flash 8 and stick to Flash 7.
Since there will be no Flash 8 player for linux, and next player will take too long to be released, there is no reason to use Flash 8.
As a Linux only user I'm very disappointed. More and more of my favorite websites have migrated to Flash 8. Is Macromedia being sponsored by Microsoft or what?